TROUBL

1. *SB*

   WOW Terry… i really respect and admire you for putting your thoughts out there on this sensitive subject…

   I understand you sentiments about religion seeming cultish in certain ways…this girl that I barely know but met through a mutual friend was very cool when we hung out…i asked my friend why she doesnt come out and hang out and she said that she joined this church and now she doesnt really go out anymore and she has changed alot since joining that ministry…that is an example of cultish behavior-in my opinion…

   I also really enjoyed the part about learning from all religions…I really hate when people denounce other religions because it does no coincide with their beliefs…I think that there is value in all religions but i cant seem to agree with the rules or guideline of how you MUST live your life…

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   Malia reply on May 6, 2008 1:22 pm:

   I sent a post and it didn’t go through! I am telling you now that if you guys censor my words I will NEVER log onto TROUBL again!

   PERIOD!!!

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   *SB* reply on May 6, 2008 1:23 pm:

   LMAO- im sure it was an accident but I feel ya!

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   Johnny Haze reply on May 6, 2008 1:24 pm:

   I blame Terry, for his lack of faith

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   Malia reply on May 6, 2008 1:34 pm:

   Yeah I think it was Terry too!!!

   Just kidding Terry

   —–but yall know my first instinct was THE DEVIL IS A LIAR!!!!! Don’t make me come through the computer…I was heated!!!!

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   TROUBLMan reply on May 6, 2008 11:55 pm:

   Damn angel…Don’t cut a brotha. For some reason the system asked that we moderate your comment. Censorship is not what we do.

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   Malia reply on May 7, 2008 8:09 am:

   Ummmm, hmmmmmmmm—-clean it up TROUBLMAN!!! It’s all good sweetie, I woke up and dusted off my halo and readjusted it—–so we’re straight!!!!!

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   NissiMan reply on May 17, 2008 3:03 am:

   Answer: Every Christian has either a family member, a friend, co-worker, or an acquaintance who is not a Christian. Sharing the Gospel with others is always difficult. Sharing the Gospel becomes even more difficult when it involves someone with whom you are close. The Bible tells us that some people will be offended at the Gospel (Luke 12:51-53). It is especially troubling to risk offending someone with whom you have frequent contact. However, we are commanded to share the Gospel – there are no excuses for not doing so (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).

   So, how can we evangelize our family members, friends, co-workers, and/or acquaintances? The most important thing you can be doing is praying for them. Pray that God would change their hearts and open their eyes (2 Corinthians 4:4) to the truth of the Gospel. Pray that God would convince them of His love for them and their need for salvation through Jesus Christ (John 3:16). Pray for wisdom in how you can minister to them (James 1:5). In addition to praying, you also need to be living a godly Christian life in front of them, so they can see the change God has made in your own life (1 Peter 3:1-2). As Saint Francis of Assisi once said, “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”

   After all of this, you must be willing and bold in your actual sharing of the Gospel. Proclaim the message of salvation through Jesus Christ to your friends and family (Romans 10:9-10). Always be prepared to speak of your faith (1 Peter 3:15), doing so with gentleness and respect. Ultimately, we must leave the salvation of our loved ones up to God. It is God’s power and grace that saves people, not our efforts. The best and most we can do is pray for them, witness to them, and live the Christian life in front of them!

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2. Malia

   Excellent and well timed piece!!!!

   LOL @ “The man upstairs” has been waiting to smite your behind for a long time now.

   Yes you are entitled to believe WHATEVER you want and as a Christian, which I am, we are taught go throughout the whole world and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that people may be SAVED!!! Our love for Christ will not allow us to be around people we care about and NOT tell them about salvation. We believe THERE IS DEFINITELY A HELL—IN FACT JESUS SPOKE OF HELL MORE THAN HE DID OF HEAVEN FOR A REASON (eternal forever hell fire, damnation, the worm never dies, gnashing of teeth—-I have a great article for ahteists on this very subject) and we believe that if you confess your sins, sincerely repent and make Jesus Lord and Savior over your life, you are transformed from death to life. Jesus’ blood, that ONE act of sacrifice paid our debt for sin and in God’s eyes we are washed clean. The only way to the Father is through the Son and whoever denies Him, He will deny in front of the Father.

   ((AS A PK….I’M SURE YOU KNOW ALL OF THIS….BUT I HAD TO LET LAYMEN KNOW AS WELL……))

   Yes forever is a long time…that’s why I make it a point to speak up about all the things going on in the world….these are signs of the last days and God loves you sooooo much that HE is patient! He doesn’t want to smite your behind sweetheart….He wants you to stop being wise in your own eyes and HAVE EYES TO SEE………… AND……… EARS TO HEAR. I care about you enough to really want you to know the Love of Christ which surpasses all understanding!!!!

   You asked what is hatred? Hatred is the devil. The devil hates YOU!!! He lovessssss the fact that you are so intellectual and you question that he exsists. He eats this stuff up! He doesn’t want you to be for God Almighty, he wants you to be in utter chaos and dissention. He loves fueding, and lust, and lies, and money. He loves when people put everything else before God. He loves when we believe in any other silly belief like spiritualists, and psychics and sun gods and goddesses — ANY god except El Shaddai, El Shalom, JEHOVAH and His son Jesus Christ!

   Below is the article about Hell:
   http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

   Below 9 min video about Hell:
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXhJqwcUTdA

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   ChiCity Star reply on May 6, 2008 3:20 pm:

   You shut the room down! LOL

   Wow, today you guys went from domestic violence to looks to porno flicks to God……it’s funny how domestic violence and looks get more attention than God. You know I’m with you Malia

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   Malia reply on May 6, 2008 3:27 pm:

   LOL!!! This isn’t even my post!

   Although we might not realize it, many of us say we love God but we cut God off……

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3. Johnny Haze

   HERE, HERE!

   Terry, you are the man. I couldn’t have summed it up better myself. The relationship between science and religion is a tenuous one, and it’s amazing how much the two sides have been polarized (largely by way of politics…seperation of church & state, anyone?). I’m not an athiest, but rather, agnostic, meaning that I feel like it’s impossible for me to say one way or another whether there is a god. All I know is that there are definitely things bigger than US that are in harmony, like the planet, the solar system, the galaxy and beyond. It’s doubtful that god is an old bearded man, though, but regardless, why should it matter? The irony of the fight between science and religion is that the two should be able to coexist, and if any religion is THE religion, science has to be a part of it; science is just so logical and can be tested and scrutinized in ways that faith cannot.

   I mean, look at something like evolution…if you actually understand how evolution works– that everything living on this planet, plants, insects, mammals, etc., actually evolved from a single cell billions of years ago, you will see that evolution is truly a miracle that again, to ascribe human characteristics to an idea, only a “god”-type could engineer. In the meantime, creationists and others like them are missing the point, using religion as a scare-tactic and a fragmenting tool. It’s honestly just sad. How about we take a page from every book and reinvent religion? I mean any religion that discounts all people who don’t follow a specific set of values, is a bit foolish, in my opinion. And then within this ideology, maybe a person isn’t following the ideals well enough ya know what I mean… it’s Pandora’s Box.

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4. The R

   Well if he is too lazy to explore these things then O well….Hell may just be where he belongs…..

   at least look into them!

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   Malia reply on May 6, 2008 1:38 pm:

   ROTFLMAO!!!!

   You made water shoot through my nose!!!!!

   Shut up!!! That’s why we’re discussing it NEGRO!!!! So he won’t go to Hell!!!!

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5. Enraptured

   To sir Atheist,

   Which way do you look when the ground starts trembling hard?

   Who made it?

   Sir Isaac Newton had a friend who, like himself, was a great scientist; but he was an infidel, while Newton was a devout Christian. They often discussed their views concerning God, as their mutual interest in science drew them much together. Newton had a skillful mechanic make him a replica of our solar system in miniature. In the center was a large gilded ball representing the sun, and revolving in proper order around this were small balls fixed on the ends of arms of varying lengths, representing Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. These bails were so geared together by cogs and belts as to move in perfect harmony when turned by a crank.

   One day, as Newton sat reading in his study with his mechanism on a large table near him, his infidel friend stepped in. Scientist that he was, he recognized at a glance what was before him. Stepping up to it, he slowly turned the crank, and with undisguised admiration watched the heavenly bodies all move with their relative speeds in their orbits. Standing off a few feet he exclaimed,

   “My! What an exquisite thing this is! Who made it?”

   Without looking up from his book, Newton answered, “Nobody!”

   Quickly turning to Newton, the infidel said, “Evidently you did not understand my question. I asked who made this?”

   Looking up now, Newton solemnly assured him that nobody made it, but that the aggregation of matter so much admired had just happened to assume the form it was in. But the astonished infidel replied with some heat, “You must think I am a fool! Of course somebody made it, and he is a genius, and I’d like to know who he is.”

   Laying his book aside, Newton arose and laid a hand on his friend’s shoulder. “This thing is but a puny imitation of a much larger system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a design and maker; yet you profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?”

   The infidel was at once convinced and became a firm believer that “Jehovah, He is God.”

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6. LoverOfPeace

   Most Christians mean well when they defend their faith. But, too often, many make fundamental errors when dialoguing with atheists. We need to make as few errors as possible, not simply to win an argument, but to help the atheist come to a saving relationship with the Lord Jesus.

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   Malia reply on May 6, 2008 2:54 pm:

   I feel you girl, but at the same time I think atheism is actually stupid, and requires as much faith, if not much more, to be an atheist.

   Any time an atheist claims that there is absolutely no God, they are claiming absolute and full knowledge of the universe (omniscience). If they are not claiming absolute knowledge, than they are going off of faith, but in fact, since they could never EVER know for sure that universal negative, then they are requiring much more faith than a person who claims there is a God (because finding out if there is a God may not require absolute knowledge).

   But hey, I don’t need to say it, it was written quite a long time ago “the fool says in his heart ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1)

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   Boosy reply on May 6, 2008 6:20 pm:

   Malia i feel you but I definitely agree. I loves the lord but many times people in the church judge others and call them heathens….thats not Christ like.. lets all remember the goal is to live like Christ…Christ lived in the streets and was with the people thats why the pharisees did not fuck with him…….so we should not judge the athiest…

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   Malia reply on May 7, 2008 8:07 am:

   I agree with you completely Boosy…Why do you think I hang around yall heathens???? LOL….just kidding, just kidding…..

   I love TROUBL …..I love being on the front lines…I love anyone who stands firm in their convictions…..I have repect for all opinions, everyone in here is SUPER DUPER INTELLIGENT….I would be a fool not to absorb this knowledge.

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   "A Mom" reply on May 8, 2008 12:00 am:

   Beautiful. You said it it Boosy in just a few lines.

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7. Terry

   Wow…love, eh? I repeat, it’s interesting how quickly people who supposedly care about you will cast you into the realm of eternal suffering for their own sake. I’m not sure that I need to say much more here, less I betray my firm belief in procrastination and laziness. (Damn, people are on to me.) But I will respond anyway. Apparently, I have a choice, believe what you all believe, depending on your particular sect, or literally go to Hell. Oy, what a dilemma. Why is it that people always respond to practical questions about their faith with rhetoric from their faith? All I wanted was the right to keep people out of my everyday commute, shouting at me about where I should spend at least 1/7th of my life.

   First, Bible verses can be very profound. This book is one of the most important texts ever written. Malia, I thank you for sharing them with us. But growing up in church, if I remember anything, it’s this: there is no absolute truth, interpretation is key. “The Bible” for example was written three hundred years after Christ supposedly was crucified and ascended into heaven. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek. There are a few passages in Aramaic and Chaldean. It has been translated and retranslated repeatedly across cultures. Once it left God’s mouth, apparently humanity engaged in a massive game of whisper down the alley. I don’t think that I need to convince anyone that all ideas don’t exactly translate across languages. Need further PRACTICAL justification, this same book’s “meaning” was used just as convincingly to justify the more enlightening periods of human history, such as the Crusades, the Inquisition, Slavery, Missionary colonization, and currently the condemnation of all those who were born gay. Reverends Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson approve. Let’s look at other reasonable conflicts? America’s current Holy War with the Middle East, Israel’s endless battle with Palestine, or the Evangelicals versus the rest of the planet are all great examples of the love being spread after bullets have been sprayed.

   Ok, look…God, Hell, The Devil and all other bits of the story book have no more value to one who does not believe in these things than leprechauns, unicorns, magic, and the countless other fairytales out there. Look at it objectively. Tell your children the stories of Pinocchio and Job back to back. Then ask them to pick out which one is the truth and which is just a story for kids. Actually, I prefer Harry Potter to Jesus but that’s just me.

   For all you philosophy heads out there, the Omni-triad in Christianity is one of my favorite subjects. God is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (all powerful, all knowing and everywhere). Based on these claims, God, being everywhere at once and being all knowing would essentially place “Him” outside of time. He would be fully conscious of all things in creation and every outcome, even those that have not come to pass, with the ability to change anything that He sees fit. So why in the world do we absolve Him of all things that we consider evil. God CREATED the devil and indeed all things “evil.” As a matter of fact, if God is truly everywhere, then He and the devil are one in the same. He is typing at this computer right now and will respond to this post with much anger and vigor over the absurd amounts of sacrilege taking place. Vonnegut said it best in his book Breakfast of Champions: “Humans are here to be the very consciousness of God.” God knew that he would flood the world in an unfathomable act of genocide and sacrifice his only begotten son, just like he knows that it will all end in a blaze of hellfire, damnation and pious people saying I told you so. Choice is an illusion if all is predestined and determined. War, plague, famine, death: these are all within God’s “plan,” indeed they must be or he fails to meet one of omni-duties. If the condition of my eternal happiness is I have to accept that the only innocent being to ever walk the Earth was murdered to save me from sins that I started committing at birth and have little control over (even though it was all apart of the plan), thanks but no thanks. All that tells me is that the dude running the show may very well be the worst sadist ever known. So tell me, how does one resolve the problem of evil? God’s holiness is in question in my book. He knows how I feel, knows what I’m thinking and reading, because he created me…or is it the other way around.

   Interestingly, if you follow the teachings of any culture across history, you will find a constant. Whatever, mankind is doing at the time, their gods are the undisputed best at them. (I won’t be smited for this one cuz He already knew I was gonna say it, just like He knows I am thinking it) We create gods, not the other way around. Let me tell you, Zeus and Ra are pissed right now.

   Christianity, like many other religions are motley collections of older rituals, values and belief systems. I’m not saying that it’s wrong for you to believe and teach it to your children. I’m saying that I do not believe and have yet to receive a practical answer as to why I should tithe and support the rituals of men. For example, an excellent reason to attend church is because it brings the community together in love and respect. Knowledge is spread and action is taken collectively. Movements begin and die at the pulpit.

   Check out the movie, Zeitgeist. http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ It is free, online, comes with a bibliography for those who like to source information, and it may very well be of the most enlightening things that you may see all year. But, they are ideas. Nothing more. Nothing less. Remain unchanged if you want, but keep the lessons taught at least. If you don’t find documentaries entertaining, watch “The Passion of the Christ” and then “The Da Vinci Code” back to back. I’d love to put the devout in a movie theater for those two and watch people wig out as their faith is reaffirmed and put into question in succession.

   *sigh* Ok, I’m ready for the onslaught of punishment and (gulp) Bible verses that I’m bringing down upon myself…Bring on the firing squad but at least blindfold me and let me bum a final cigarette. I love a good debate.

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8. "A Mom"

   The lord is my savior! I have been saved since I was 8 years old. But the one thing that I have learned as an adult is. The way you live your life is what brings others in.
   I know several people that have been run away from church, because of how people have approached them. There is a way to do things. My sister can tell you a lot about the bible but is such a contradiction. She can look at you and judge you in a minute because she thinks she knows her bible but doesn’t understand what it really means. It’s not what you know that the lord sees. It’s your motives. Just because you are religious and do all the right things does not guarantee your pass. He sees your motives.

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9. Q.

   Malia, love you to death, but umm..

   Are we really taught to go throughout the world and preach the Gospel? There are a few PKs in the room, which is cool, and i might be one of those PKs that just don’t follow the general rule of thumb.. We all read the scriptures, and i truly believe that the scriptures speak to each and every one of us differently.. I’ve never felt it was my responsibility to go and preach the Gospel.. Letting people know that i believe is one thing, but preaching it?

   Shoot, i’m with Terry, i need these “Bible Thumpers” to stay out of my face.. They were on the train yesterday.. Chick screaming her sermon.. “Did i ask you to yell at me sis? Did i ask you to start babbling about stuff that i can probably cut you up over?”.. They all start with the “you are a sinner and you need to repent” ish.. Get the eff outta here.. Taking it back to the mid-90’s “repent deez nuts”.. I’m not putting you in that category, Malia, because i know where you’re coming from..

   I just think people need to respect the fact that we all will get to wherever we are going in due time.. On our own time.. In our own time..
   Maybe i haven’t gotten to the Book of Psalms yet.. Maybe i’m getting there.. But i’m getting there.. Shoot, i joke all the time when people talk to me about God.. i’ll always be on some “that’s my nigga.. that nigga know me and feel me..” i do that on purpose, just to get the looks.. but that’s the relationship that i’ve developed with the Lord.. that’s how i feel.. he understands when i cuss and say nigga.. he understands all of the things that are me, because i was made in his image (if i’m following the scripture).. i get upset when people act like God is stuck in pre-BC times.. i’m not saying “thou” and “art” and ending my words with “eth”.. not happening, but he still understands..

   the Bible never was a literal translation, but so many people still walk around acting like it.. i had a conversation last week with a Gospel star on the rise.. (shout out to Fuzion).. and she said

   “Q., i want people to realize that we are real people to, that cuss, get upset, and walk and talk just like everyone else..”

   i felt her with that.. she was younger, but she wanted her voice to be different than others.. she writes about her relationship with God in a different way.. she talks about her life and the realness that comes with it, even though she’s a PK as well.. that’s what the scripture has taught her..

   i know i’m rambling, but some of the comments scare me.. If i wasn’t a believer, i might run from some of y’all.. or pray for you..

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   Malia reply on May 7, 2008 7:59 am:

   I love you too! But let me tell you that I know first hand that yall PK’s are the worse of the bunch (sorry…LOL, but I could tell yall some stories….) that doesn’t minimize my love for you! And yes sweetheart, Jesus Himself instructed us to throughout the world and preach the Gospel (my version of preaching ain’t yelling it from the hilltops, but I will always share what I believe without remorse…PERIOD!!!!)….you might need a remedial course but llike I said before I am not here to shove my beliefs down anyone’s throat. He wrote the article…I just responded to it.

   I haven’t always been a Christian, you already know I didn’t even own a Bible until I was 18….so don’t let me scare you….shoot I’m working out MY OWN SALVATION—-I don’t have room to be judging you or anyone else!!!! PLEASE BELIEVE………………

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   Q. reply on May 7, 2008 8:09 am:

   i wonder why we are the worse!! LOL.. there is an underlining issue found right there.. most of us PKs are privy to the stuff that goes on behind the scenes.. so, we are definitely messed up because of it.. but, we also spent more time in Wednesday night Bible study to last us 10 lifetimes, and i would put my ability to quote verse for verse with anyone out there.. even though i no longer attend church..

   I could argue the whole “Jesus himself” thing, but it does get away from the point of the post.. but i’ll be your huckleberry.. it’s one thing to speak on your love of Christ and the lessons learned, but preaching the Gospel? maybe it’s semantics that i’m caught up on.. it’s like those people that get on the trains and buses.. those individuals are sometimes moved by what they read, and then all of a sudden become an authority.. umm, no.. doesn’t work like that.. that’s not preaching.. that’s talking out your ass.. professing your love is another thing in its entirety..

   i’m good with the remedial courses, though..

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   Malia reply on May 7, 2008 9:40 am:

   I have a theory about this one …lol….Preacher’s kids are not immune from adolescence with all its implications and consequences. In fact, it is much worse for you guys because people expect more of yall and make you constantly aware of whose children you are. You’re always criticized by adults and peers everywhere you go and about nearly everything you say or do. Instead of being simply accepted as a child going through adolescence, you guys are held to a higher standard and feel isolated because of who your parents are. This unrelenting pressure is felt all the dang time, not only at school, but it continues at church EVERY WEDNESDAY, EVERY FRIDAY AND TWICE ON SUNDAY!!!!! That could make a normal kid crazy so I know yall got issues…lol.

   Man, I used to hang out with the PK’s after Sunday School and they would be OFF THE HINGES!!!! Smoking, drinking, cussing like sailors (sound familiar) and don’t even talk about sex….LAWD, LAWD!!!! No wonder why I’m all jacked up!!!!!

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10. Malia

    LOL!!! Okay, okay……I will let sleeping dogs lie!!! You have me laughin too hard to concentrate on your eternal soul!!!!!

    You continue to do you and I will continue to do me!!! I’ll pray for you!!!!

    *smile*

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11. Terry

    Malia- LOL!!! I see you have had a few experiences of your own.

    Well, what can a preacher’s kid do? Sunday was never a day of rest, that’s just when you go to church all day. They feed you in between and you fight the itis for the second sermon. But church was never just a one day thing. It’s true, you do see the man behind the curtain when it’s a part of the household. You get the distinct feeling that someone is always watching…eventually questions need to be answered and that’s when faith is either reaffirmed or falls apart.

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    Malia reply on May 8, 2008 7:28 am:

    LOL at the …itis!!! I feel you Terry and I couldn’t imagine being dragged around my entire childhood and have it not affect me so I definitely have compassion for all that you went through. It probably did you make you run for the hills………I believe that you will find your own relationship with God (hopefully) and make it what you want it to be. Not what someone else forces upon you.

    Just like you—-I’m a non-conformist…I go against the grain most times. I was a sinner sweetheart (I was very good at it)….I actually have a testimony that would make you say DAMN!!!! So if I can find Christ——I KNOW ANYONE CAN!!!!

    My halo wasn’t even ON much less straight! But once I found Him I never wanted to be separated from Him…and as Boosy stated so eloquently, I try to live my life “Christ-like” …. for some people - I might be the ONLY JESUS THEY SEE!!!!

    Smile sweetheart! God loves you!!!!

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    Terry reply on May 8, 2008 12:29 pm:

    Umm…alright. Well, as nice as the sentiment of God’s love may be, is the final comment for your sake or mine?

    Are the viewpoints and concerns of others dismissed as silly, lazy, stupid, ignorant or childish once it’s established that Jesus is Lord, Saviour and the ONE true God?

    Chi City Star made an excellent point: sex and violence get more attention than God. Why is that?

    Does the conversation just end here with everyone willing to agree to disagree just as most theological conversations in a public forum do?

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    Malia reply on May 8, 2008 4:47 pm:

    Yes Terry, unfortunately people get too emotional over the issue of God. I’m very passionate about my stance so I’m not changing my views. JESUS is IT for me!!!!!! Now if you want to talk about THAT I would love to, but I’m not going to sit here and try to be civil but I know we will be at each other’s throats….and that ain’t Christlike!!!!

    I don’t know what to say. It makes me sad, and I can pray about it…other than that I don’t know what to tell you. I follow Jesus, there is no other way for me……

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12. TROUBLdMAMI

    I love God…I am a God fearing woman…I have faith…However, in some aspects I believe religion is social control. If we take a look back in time, religion has caused thousands, millions to be persecuted and made many feel inadequate about themselves or their actions in their daily lives. If God is truly Love, why do we have institutions still in place that look down towards female preachers? Why is hate taught in the church? In some churches, why can’t you come as you are? Shit…I may not be able to afford that $400 hat, or that $300 pair of shoes…If I want to rock some jeans and a t-shirt, does that mean I love God any less? Religion hinders perspective…

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    TROUBLMan reply on May 9, 2008 6:31 pm:

    I’m glad you made the distinction. Religion and god are separate to me also. Religion is a way to express god. It gives us direction, fellowship and a means of worship, but it’s not God. God or what I like to call “The Power,” existed before man had the language abilities to even call him God. The Power existed before the Bible was written. So therefore god and religion are mutually exclusive.

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13. Malia

    Nobody wants to obey God!!! It’s that simple, they want to put God in a box and tell God when they will pray, what scriptures they will believe and which ones they won’t, they want to be saints on Sunday and act a fool Monday thru Saturday!!! They don’t want a God that makes them UNCOMFORTABLE….

    Sorry folks, God created us, not the other way around!!! God doesn’t update His thinking and His Word to coincide with ours…While people want to follow Hov—(a countefeit) I want to follow JEHOVAH!!!!!! (the REAL DEAL)……While people know all the lyrics from Jay Z, I choose to know the WORD FROM JC!!!!!! (Jesus Christ)

    JUST KEEPING IT 100%

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14. Terry

    Malia,

    Alright, people choose not to obey the word of God… so what if you are raised in another religion that does not worship Christ but another influencial figure. For example, most sects of Islam and Judaism view Christ as a prophet, but not the human manifestation of God. If they lead “good lives” then shouldn’t they receive all of the same rewards that a Christian will reap in Heaven.

    Buddhism isn’t based on a specific deity but they are open to following multiple paths. In other words, they are inclusive in their philosophies and membership, not exclusive. Wouldn’t a more open perspective that respects peoples upbringing aid Christians in increasing the numbers of their flock and spreading the love?

    As far as omniscience in declaring there is no God, couldn’t the same logic be applied to saying that there are no vampires, goblins, or wizards. By calling Gods of older civilizations mythology, isn’t that showing the same arrogance of which atheists are guilty?

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    Malia reply on May 9, 2008 2:58 pm:

    I’ve asked that question myself many times Terry. If an atheist’s been good all their lives but they can’t get to heaven because they didn’t believe in God, they won’t go to hell, will they? They may have been as good as a Christian is supposed to be, so for God to send them to hell won’t be fair. But if they don’t go to heaven or hell, where do they go? What does the Bible say about atheists?

    Firstly, the Bible says that doing good isn’t the criterion for getting to heaven. Perhaps anyone who desires and strives for absolute purity could make it. But the biblical criterion is recognising that, perhaps despite the fact that we may think we’ve lived good lives, we’re still sinners in need of a saviour, and so we should accept that Jesus Christ allowed himself to be killed on a cross so he could take the punishment for our sins, and we should turn away from everything we know to be wrongdoing.

    I’m personally thankful that getting to heaven doesn’t just depend on how good we’ve been. If the criterion for getting to heaven was being good, then people who made a sincere commitment to Christ and to live as ethically as possible in obedience to him not long before they died after having lived immoral lives would find themselves going to hell despite their latter commitment to follow him and turn away from their sins, because the number of years they had spent sinning would far exceed the amount of time they later spent doing good. Or if they’d done one thing that was very bad but then spent years regretting it, it might still outweigh all the good they’d done and be enough to get them sent to hell, particularly since no one can be entirely good and everyone does things that aren’t good throughout their lives. But the love of Jesus extends to people who’ve spent years doing evil things, if they’ll only sincerely accept him and turn away from them.

    However, the Bible does say that there will be a time when it will be too late. In several places it says that on Judgment Day people will be judged according to their actions, and those who have done good deeds will go to heaven, while people who have rejected Christ and done evil will go to hell.

    It also says that people who have relied on their own efforts to get to heaven and yet have rejected and scorned Christ, as the Pharisees did, will not get there. And it warns people who think they can rely on their own goodness to get to heaven while not admitting how sinful they really are, as many Pharisees of Jesus’ time did, that in fact they are not pleasing God.

    So it seems that anyone who has been caring and compassionate and not actually rejected Christ will go to heaven.

    However, the Bible does indicate that the majority of people in the world will not go to heaven, at least not before they have been chastised for a while. When people become Christians they receive the Holy Spirit, who is God’s spirit living in people to turn them into better people, changing attitudes and behaviour. Some nasty people can become completely different after they become Christians. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God’s “mark of ownership” on his people.
    However, Jesus said to his disciples that the world at large couldn’t receive the Holy Spirit.
    Later in the New Testament, in one of the apostle Paul’s letters, Paul was explaining that one of the reasons Christians would sometimes suffer was so they would be purified; and he said: “We are judged and punished by the Lord, so that we shall not be condemned together with the world.” (1 Corinthians Ch 11)

    There is a possibility that people who haven’t heard about Jesus on earth will have an opportunity to accept him before Judgment Day. Jesus said that the dead will hear his voice, and those who listen will live. He didn’t say whether he meant all the dead or specific ones, The idea that people will be reincarnated so they can have another chance at living a good life isn’t biblical. The Bible says that people are destined to die “once, and after that comes judgment”. If being good was the criterion for getting to heaven, Jesus wouldn’t have needed to die for our sins, because people could get to heaven by themselves.

    Jesus did say on a few occasions that there are severer punishments awaiting some people than others.
    In Matthew’s gospel, it says: (Matthew Ch 11)

    20 Jesus began to denounce the cities where he had done most of his miracles, because they hadn’t turned from their sins and turned to God.

    21 “What horrors await you, Korazin and Bethsaida! For if the miracles I did in you had been done in wicked Tyre and Sidon, their people would have sat in deep repentance long ago, clothed in sackcloth and throwing ashes on their heads to show their remorse. 22 I assure you, Tyre and Sidon will be better off on the judgment day than you!
    23 And you people of Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be brought down to the place of the dead. For if the miracles I did for you had been done in Sodom, it would still be here today. 24 I assure you, Sodom will be better off on the judgment day than you.”

    On one occasion, the Bible says that Jesus was talking about his return and how people needed to be ready for it, doing what he wanted them to do, because if they did evil they would be thrown into a terrible place. He was using the illustration of a servant in charge of a household, either doing his job or being cruel and irresponsible. After that he said,
    “The servant who knows what his master wants him to do, but does not get himself ready and do it, will be punished with a heavy whipping. But the servant who does not know what his master wants, and yet does something for which he deserves a whipping, will be punished with a light whipping. Much is required from the person to whom much is given; much more is required from the person to whom much more is given.” (Luke Ch 12)

    The Bible says that on another occasion, Jesus was criticizing some people who liked to be treated with respect - people who cheated widows and orphans out of their homes and after that they made a show of saying long prayers. He said that for this, their punishment would be “all the worse”. (Luke Ch 20)

    The Bible says that on the Judgment Day, books will be opened containing a record of everything people have done, good and bad. It says that we will be:

    Judged according to our deeds;
    judged by every word we have ever spoken;
    that all our hidden motives will be exposed,
    and everything we have done in secret will be brought out into the open.
    It may be that when we are confronted with all the impure things we have ever done and said, we will all feel like shameful sinners deserving of hell! The Bible says: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags”. (Isaiah Ch 64)

    When Jesus said that people couldn’t get to heaven except through him, he probably meant that anyone who will never accept that they are a sinner and that he died for them on the cross will not get to heaven, as well as anyone who won’t accept his death for them because they don’t care that they’re sinners. People who don’t accept that they are sinners won’t want to be made perfect if they think they’re already good enough. And the Bible says that only people who are willing to be made spotlessly pure can be in heaven.

    Imagine a Christian who works for a charity every weekday, helping people in need. She’s achieved a lot over the time she’s been there. She doesn’t take home much pay, and she could be working somewhere else earning much more, but she believes that Christians ought to work to help people less fortunate, not to simply live for themselves. She truly believes in what she’s doing, and has been described by her boss as having high working standards. Even in her spare time, she works to try to highlight the needs of people less fortunate than her. And when people have come to her in need at weekends, she has sometimes sacrificed her desire to do something with her family to help them. You might think, “Isn’t she a good person! Surely if heaven exists, she deserves to go there. At least she would, if it wasn’t for that evil belief she has in hell. How can she possibly believe that people who haven’t even had the opportunity to hear about Jesus might go there!”

    But what would she think? Would she agree she’s a good person, but that her belief in hell is evil? What if her opinion was completely the reverse of that which the world might have of her, and she thought:

    “I don’t think I’m a good person at all. I’ll go through a typical day to illustrate. When I wake up in the morning, before I get out of bed, my thoughts wander onto degenerate things like conversations I’ve recently had on an Internet forum with people who’ve put forward arguments against Christianity which have been so boorish and wilfully ignorant that they’ve made me feel contemptuous of the people putting them forward. Do I immediately take my thoughts away from those things and focus my attention on more holy things, like praying for people in need, or planning the details of my latest work projects? No. Not usually. Instead, I can magnify my feeling of contempt by dwelling on it. I know it’s a bad thing to do, but time and time again, I find myself doing it. My thoughts can wander back to it all through the day.

    When I get up in the morning, I have an enjoyable breakfast. My house is warm and comfortable. I have food and modern conveniences like an electric kettle and a fridge at my fingertips. I feel secure, because the possibility of my house being burgled is quite low, since I live in an area where the crime rate’s fairly low. So I can sleep in peace, and wake up with the expectation of enjoying my breakfast. But am I thankful? Not nearly as much as I ought to be. I often take these things for granted, as if I’m just not grateful. Instead of living in a spirit of gratitude, I often just don’t give my privileged position in having all these things a second’s thought. I know I should thank God more for allowing me to be in a position where I can enjoy all these things. After all, he surely deserves it. But I often don’t. And this carries on throughout the day, with me taking good thing after good thing for granted, instead of stopping to think how privileged I am to have these things. When I compare my fortunes with those of people who don’t have nearly so much, I realise how I’m getting things all out of perspective. I ought to be ashamed of my ingratitude.

    “But when I do feel grateful, it’s a very good feeling. I realise I should be more thankful to God. Every now and then, I do stop and think, and become thankful to God for a while, but not as often as I should. No, I can’t consider myself to be a good person.

    “When I’m at work, I don’t get nearly as much done as I should sometimes, because I involve myself in selfish preoccupations far too much of the time. I spend longer drinking tea and talking to people than I should really. I sometimes fancy a break and go on the Internet, especially when I’m doing something I don’t find that interesting, and I go to that Internet forum I know I should stay away from really because it fuels my unholy feelings of contempt. I know it’s a bad habit. I shouldn’t do it. I know I’m putting off doing something for someone in need for a while when I do it. It’s as if I get my priorities all wrong for a while. It’s as if my desire to be on the forum becomes more important to me than people’s needs. So for a while, I get things all out of perspective. I enjoy being there, often because of the arguments people have, where they insult each other or ridicule each other’s opinions. I find that highly amusing sometimes. But it just shows my degenerate nature, because obviously it isn’t pleasant for the people on the receiving end of the insults or the ridicule. I’m not considering their feelings, but instead finding amusement in their petty misfortunes, although having said that, I don’t know how it’s affecting them, because they don’t usually say, and I don’t suppose they find it too upsetting or they wouldn’t be there. Nevertheless, enjoying witnessing others being put down isn’t nice. I ought to stay away from the forum really, but it’s kind of addictive because of the amusement. I do stay away from it sometimes for quite some time, but every now and then, I want to go back, and the same thing happens.

    “And I know that when I’m taking a diversion onto the Internet to entertain myself for longer than I should, or spending too long in the kitchen having a break, I’m really stealing the employer’s time, and I’m well aware that Christians aren’t supposed to steal. It may not be a big thing, but it adds up, and it still isn’t honourable.

    “I spend more time on that forum in the evening. I could be going to prayer sites, where I’d be praying for people in need. But instead, all too often, I focus on my own selfish amusement. I know I need to relax and entertain myself after my day’s work, but I often don’t spend any time at all at those prayer sites, but instead spend my time on the computer on the forum looking at things that often make other people look bad. That isn’t necessary for relaxation and recreation. I also find myself being a bit abusive to people on the forum sometimes, because I get angry with them because of what they say. I even get irritated with people just because they’re saying boring things to me sometimes, which I know isn’t fair.

    So am I a good person? No way! Certainly not compared to perfection. I could pride myself on my goodness. I could say, ‘I’m a good person! I work for a charity every weekday! Let me tell you about all the things I’ve achieved while I’ve been there! I could be earning far more money working in another field of employment, but I’ve given up the opportunity because I want to help others. And I even help people at weekends. Besides that, I never intentionally do anything to harm other people.’ But I would consider that to be mere misleading boasting, because I know that compared to the standards of purity that God wants, and that I’d be achieving if I was a really good person, I come way short. I’m failing miserably when it comes to standards of perfection.

    “So thank God for Jesus! Thank God for his mercy. Thank God that he knows people have faults, which is why Jesus came to the world to pay for our sins, and why God gives us the Holy Spirit to help us! Thank God that he doesn’t treat us all as we deserve! I know that if in the after-life, he abandoned me to a wilderness land of shame or even annihilated me, I’d thoroughly deserve it. I’d consider the punishment a just one. I wouldn’t feel able to complain. But thank God that he’s willing to save me from what I deserve!

    “Thank God that he’s patient with me, and I have the opportunity to dedicate myself to him anew, renounce my involvement in things that breed attitudes in me that run contrary to Christian teaching like that forum, and seek to be purified again, starting afresh with him. Now I’ve thought about what a bad effect it has on me, I’ll make a commitment to stay away from the forum for good. But that still won’t make me a good person, because of other little faults I have. Perfection is the ideal, but no one will achieve it on earth. So thank God for Jesus, who took my punishment, and everyone else’s!

    “Salvation is such a tremendous gift! Some people speak as if they think everyone has a right to it. But it’s a gift. Saying it’s unfair that some people won’t receive it is like complaining that someone only invited their friends to a garden party instead of the entire neighbourhood. What right do the whole neighbourhood have to go, as if they’re somehow automatically entitled to? Some people seem to think that the Christian message is, ‘We’re going to heaven; you’re going to hell. Ha ha!’ but that would be a perversion of the message. Everybody deserves hell. I’m sure I do, for one. I don’t believe it’s eternal torment; I don’t believe people will be in agony there; but I still don’t believe it will be good. So thankfully, some of us will be saved from what we deserve. That’s the Christian message.

    “If people think of hell as a place of torture that everyone will have to endure for eternity whether they’re Hitler or someone who just didn’t quite please God enough even though they were quite good, they’re right to think of it as unjust punishment. But I don’t think hell’s like that at all.

    “As for people who haven’t had the opportunity to accept the gift of salvation because they’ve never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus, well, perhaps they’ll have to take what they rightfully deserve for their sins, whatever that turns out to be, just like I should really. Or maybe they’ll get an opportunity to hear about Jesus in the after-life, before Judgment Day. I’m not sure what’ll happen to them. But the reason we’re told to evangelise in the Bible is so that as many people as possible will hear about the gift and have the opportunity to accept it. That might also be so people living lives that are genuinely harming others will hopefully find inspiration in the message and turn their lives around, stopping their harmful behaviour, benefiting those around them.

    But then, the Bible also says that the glories of the heavens speak of the nature of the creator, so he can be worshipped as he should be without knowledge of the Bible.”

    NOW VAMPIRES GOBLINS AND WIZARDS???? I believe they exist, I believe in Satan he is real. The Bible says he can transform himself into an angel of light so I have no doubt that he can transform himslef into a vampire, goblin, or wizard…….

    [Reply]

15. Terry

    By the way….for everyone that has voiced their disappointment in people’s ignorance about God, now is the time to speak up. People are listening…

    [Reply]

16. LoveOfPeace

    Do nice people go to heaven?

    Jay Carty, founder of Yes! Ministries and former pro basketball player for the Los Angeles Lakers, began addressing the question at a Focus on the Family chapel service by comparing sin with onions.

    “Sin makes you stink,” he said. “We’re kind of like onions. We stink.

    “If you put an onion in the refrigerator, everything will stink.”

    In heaven, no “stink” is allowed. Otherwise, like in the refrigerator, one onion can stink up heaven.

    Going back to the question “Do nice people go to heaven?” Carter says no.

    The question is one of the most commonly asked and standard questions the unchurched has. Dr. Hal Seed and Dr. Dan Grider list similar questions – “Can a loving God send people to Hell?” and “Do all religions lead to heaven?” – as some of the most standard questions the public has in their book, The God Questions. But it’s also a question most Christians wonder about, said Focus on the Family founder Dr. James Dobson at the chapel service attended by the organization’s staff.

    Yet, you don’t hear it talked about in church very often, Dobson pointed out.

    Some people use a scale to answer the common yet difficult-to-address question. The scale of measuring how qualified a person is for heaven consists of Hitler, considered the most evil person in history, at one end and Mother Theresa, considered the most virtuous, at the other.

    “That’s how you come to the conclusion that God grades on the curve,” said Carty. “That’s how you come to the conclusion that nice people really don’t go to hell because you got the wrong standard.

    “The minute you take on the absolute holy standard of God, then nobody qualifies.”

    To put it simply, “Being a nice person won’t cut it;” or more bluntly stated, “Nice people really do go to hell.”

    That’s a concept many Christians struggle with, including Carty who said there is no doctrine in the Bible that he wants to be wrong any more than that one.

    So what do you do with the onion?

    You saran wrap it. Then it won’t stink anything up, according to Carty. The blood of Jesus Christ serves as that saran wrap, he indicated.

    Alluding to the popular story of Jesus saving the one lost sheep while leaving the other 99, Carty told the room of believers to make saving souls a passion. “If it takes 99 Christians to save one lost sheep, God says, ‘Very good trade.’”

    [Reply]

17. Felicia

    There is none good but the Father. Even in our best efforts to do good, we still fall short because we’re born with a depraved nature and we were in need of a Savior. We all had/have an outstanding debt that needed to be paid and it was paid a long time ago on the Cross. So yes, “good” people…(I’m assuming you mean those who “do” good things..and we know you can’t get to heaven based on works), will not make it in.

    [Reply]

18. Gods Girl Praying

    Yes, unfortunately hell is going to be filled with nice people who refuse to accept Christ as Savior.

    [Reply]

19. Samuel

    Nobody is “good”. Good is a relative term that we humans use in judging each other, but not the standard God uses. Heaven is a place of total sinless perfection, and no sin (not even one) can enter there and it still be heaven.

    Only the blood of Jesus can atone for and forgive sins.

    I think this question has been on here several times before, just since I found this forum…..is this one of those drinking game questions or something?

    [Reply]

20. mrschocolatestuff

    Yes, because all of our goodness is equal to filthy rags when it comes face to face with God. Only by accepting Christ’s goodness, and applying it to our account, can we be good enough to stand before God. There will be a lot of “good” people in hell. You don’t get there by the good things you do. Those are called “works”. There is no way to work yourway to heaven. You get there by His grace.

    [Reply]

21. Erika

    Well, that is a good question. I have often been told by people that the pathway to hell is full of good intentions. If your were taught about God and you knew Him in your lifetime and then decided to turn your back on Him and walk away then yes I believe you could go to hell if you don’t repent for breaking the 1st commandment ” You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart”. However, if a person has never been told that God exists and that person has lived a good life I don’t think said person would go to hell. It is true we are all born with original sin but that is what baptism is for to wash away the original sin and all sins committed before the baptism. Confession and atonement and reconciliation are for the sins committed after baptism. However if a person was never taught about God and never knew what sin was and lived a good life then I think that person would be given special consideration.
    Of course, if a person knows what Hell is then he must know what Heaven is and also therefore knows who God is…….. right?

    [Reply]

Reply to “Naysayers”

SEE ALSO

               January 29, 2008

               April 28, 2008

               January 30, 2008

               February 25, 2008

               February 21, 2008